Choosing Life After A Shattering Prenatal Diagnosis with Wayne Topp

A single sentence from a doctor can turn a joyful ultrasound into a spiral of fear, and for many families the next sentence is even worse: abortion is presented as the “option.” Why does modern healthcare so often fast-track abortion after a prenatal diagnosis? How does disability-selective abortion echo eugenics in practice?

This week we talk with Wayne Topp about getting devastating prenatal news twice and how our families can respond when fear and pressure hit at the same time. We unpack why abortion is often presented as the default after a diagnosis and why human dignity cannot depend on health, ability, or prognosis.

Subscribe for more Straight Talk on Life Issues, share this episode with someone who needs it, and leave a review so more families can find these resources. What part of Wayne’s story stayed with you? 

Transcript

The Moment Everything Changes

Wayne Topp 0:03

Every parent, as soon as they find out they're pregnant, they immediately start thinking of all the amazing things that their child is going to do, and all the giggles, and the beautiful, perfect cherub face, and all of these things. And then you you get this news where your child is quote unquote not normal, right? It's not a normal diagnosis, and it's just crushing. And in that moment, you're presented with this option. Well, like, it's not what you wanted. It doesn't have to be.

Wayne Topp’s Family And Faith

Victor Nieves 1:12

Welcome to Straight Talk on Life Issues. I'm Victor Nievis, president of Life Issues Institute. Today we're speaking with Wayne Topp, a husband and father of eight children. He's a graduate of Xavier University and has worked for the Archdiocese of Cincinnati's Pastoral Center in various roles since 2007. Wayne, welcome to the show. Appreciate being here.

Rare Diagnosis At 20 Weeks

Saying Yes Through Surgery And Recovery

Another Scare With Baby Felix

Wayne Topp 1:49

Sure, absolutely. I am born and raised Catholic and was married in 2004 to my wife, Marianne. We have eight children. And as I look back over our marriage, I would say that each of our children has been a blessing, a gift, of course. Um, but also each of them somewhat of a fruit of prayer, a deepening in our relationship with each other, our relationship with the Lord. You know, our first child came along in 2006, and we found out very early on in the pregnancy, right around the 20-week ultrasound, that there was something going on. Doctors diagnosed a shift. Actually, they saw that his heart was shifted slightly to the left. And there were a number of things that could cause that, but they ultimately found out through later testing that he had what they call a diaphragmatic hernia. So there was a hole in this diaphragm on the right side, and that actually allowed the liver to float up into his chest cavity, therefore compressing his lungs and shifting his heart to the left. Now, with diaphragmatic hernias, most are on the left side. So you'll deal with some floating of abdominal organs, but usually it's like loops of the small intestine will go in. Obviously, it's a major issue, but not as serious as the right side. So we were immediately uh in conversations with doctors, and you know, they they're trying to figure out exactly what this is and what the prognosis is as well for our child. And we heard anything from a 15% chance survival to an 85% chance survival. I mean, it was such a rare condition that um the doctors were the there was just not enough research on it. We decided to keep going uh with the pregnancy, you know, despite, I mean, we had doctors tell us, well, you know, I know this is gonna be very complicated. I know this is gonna be very difficult, there's still a chance to end the pregnancy, um, there's still a, you know, we should undergo genetic testing. And and we did accept the genetic testing. We just wanted to, because one of the things that they were saying is if the hernia is the main problem or the only problem, then we could eventually repair that and he could go on to live somewhat of a normal life. However, if there are other complications that show up, the likelihood of our son actually surviving even the pregnancy was were was very low. So we did undergo the testing and just to give ourselves some understanding what we're dealing with. God be praised. The only thing that showed up in that was the diaphragmatic hernia. So we finished the pregnancy there. 36 weeks, right before he was due to be delivered, we went in and got a fetal MRI, and they that showed the level of obstruction, I guess you could say, that the liver was causing there and how much was left for it. What would be possible for his delivery? What would be the mode of his delivery? And it ended up being the most serious form of the hernia and the least amount of lung capacity that he could conceivably survive with if they did a procedure that our children's hospital had never done before, actually, which is remarkable. We we actually didn't know that he was the first to undergo this. You know, the doctors were very good at keeping that part quiet. But we went in and said, yes, we will do this no matter the risks, and even the risks to my wife, of course, as well, in the surgery. And I mean, I was surrounded by my family in the waiting room. My father-in-law was able to be in the delivery room with my wife, who my father-in-law was a doctor at the time. And so, anyway, uh, three and a half hours of surgery later, he was our son was born and uh stayed at children's hospital for the next six and a half months with multiple surgeries and miraculous survivals. And and uh we were able to bring him home. And he is now 20 years old, living at home. He still has complications. He has cerebral palsy, he has some things left over that we're still, you know, every day is still a bit of a challenge for him, but he's brought so much joy into our lives and he has made us who we are today as a family. And uh, you know, we continue to be in a relationship with the Lord and we continue to say yes to more children in our marriage. And each child after that, there are almost no complications, you know, basic things here and there. But then our eighth child, who was so each of our children sort of came along about every two years. And then um, our last child was it was a six-year gap between him and our youngest daughter. And he, at the 20-week ultrasound, my wife was getting older, and so of course they're looking more seriously for markers for genetic abnormalities, specifically Down syndrome. And at the 20-week ultrasound, there were some measurements that said there's signs here that this child could have Down syndrome. And there were some other things they were immediately wanted to be watching. One was the umbilical cord was hypercoiled, and and they kept telling us right away in the ultrasound room, and then at the follow-up, all of these things just lead to negative outcomes for this child. And so once again, we were presented with the option to end the pregnancy, and we immediately knew it's not an option for us. And then, of course, we had to go home and figure out how do we tell our children about the possibility of a child with special needs or even the possibility of a child who might not make it through this pregnancy. We waited a few days or maybe one, about 24 hours. My wife and I sat with it and prayed with it, and and we decided that we need to, together with our family, pray for this child and make sure our children know that whatever is going to come of this pregnancy, that God is going to perform a miracle here. We were going to get to witness whatever miracle God had in store for us. And we took it to prayer. We did some more genetic testings, we did a blood test that would confirm a diagnosis there of Down syndrome or other genetic abnormalities. And at the end of that, like I said, the tenth day, my wife and I were driving home from an appointment and got the test results. And we immediately went to the church, and it was there that we opened those results, and we found out that he, in fact, did not have Down syndrome, he did not have any genetic abnormalities. And immediately we knew that this was a miracle that we had received and and we celebrated with our kids and they were so happy. But there were still some things that we had to watch the hypercoil cord. There was a cyst on the placenta, and so we were regularly going to the doctor and checking that out. Anyway, at the end of the pregnancy in the delivery room, this baby who they said was probably going to be small because of the coil, and there was some other possible growth markers, ended up being an eight-pound something ounce baby and perfectly healthy and normal. And we ended up naming him Felix because we had found out that we were pregnant with him on the Gaudete Sunday. So the third Sunday of Advent, which that Sunday the church celebrates joy. So this name Felix actually means happiness, the intense happiness. He truly is the a child who continues to bring happiness and joy to our lives. And gosh, we are so grateful for it.

The Pressure To Abort After Diagnosis

Victor Nieves 8:37

Well, Wayne, first of all, thank you for sharing your story. You know, one of the things that stood out is that you experienced this two times, but we've spoken with multiple guests who share similar situations where there is a negative, maybe a test, maybe a negative prognosis, diagnosis in the womb. And it seems the immediate first response is to go to an abortion. In fact, we've had people on the show who will say the doctor came into the room, delivered the news of here's the prognosis, and then asked, When would you like me to schedule your abortion? So immediately fast-tracking, immediately pushing people in the direction of an abortion, take us into your mind at that moment in time as a father. You're wrestling with this news. This is a big news that for anybody to go with, no matter how solid your foundation of faith, that is something that could test you. And then to have the very people who are supposed to be on your side, who are supposed to be fighting for your child, come in and make a suggestion like, hey, we think that you should kill your own child. I mean, I that would just make my head spin. What was it like for you as a father in that moment or those moments, I guess?

Wayne Topp 9:43

Yeah, you know, I I've talked to a number of people since this experience, well, and both experiences, but this most recent one, and again, like I said at the beginning of my story, it's been a growth in faith, that growth in discipleship all through each of my children. And so especially after this most recent, our youngest child, and having that experience, and then reflecting back to where I was with my first in both situations. And you just pointed it out, Victor. My wife and I were at our absolute most vulnerable state in our minds, in our lives, just wrestling with the news, first of all, that your child, the one that you dream of great and beautiful things, and every parent, as soon as they find out they're pregnant, they immediately start thinking of all the amazing things that their child is going to do, and all the the giggles and the beautiful, perfect cherub face and all of these things. And then you you get this news where your child is quote unquote not normal, right? It's not a normal diagnosis and it's just crushing. It's crushing. And in that moment, you're presented with this option. Well, like it's not what you wanted. It doesn't have to be, you know, you don't have to go through the pain of that. And it was in those, in that reflection, that I realized just how easy it is to say, yeah, I don't, I don't want to have to experience that. And, you know, I I have to admit that there are times in my life when I I don't know what the right word is, but I I will use the word anger at people who make the choice to abort their child. And it's in reflection in those moments where God's clearly spoke to me and said, look, this is what it's like. The idea of it being of somebody purporting that that this is pro-choice, it really in that moment feels like this is the only choice I have. And I thank God that I did have a foundation of faith. I did have uh my wife there with me, and my wife had me with her, that we could do this together and we could stand together and say, whatever it is, we can get through this. Our marriage is strong enough to help us through this. God's grace is good, it is sufficient, but it's a very vulnerable position and to be presented with that news and it feels like the easy way out in the moment. And uh I am truly grateful that both of our doctors, you know, the the second one in particular said, Look, I I don't like saying this. I I don't really want to, but I have to, which was also a bit of a shock to me that I have to present this option to you. But even our doctors were hesitant to bring it up. So I I'm grateful for that as well. To have somebody say, Well, when? When do you want me to? That's not even I didn't have to be presented with that that harsh of a reality.

Victor Nieves 12:32

Wayne, was it any easier? I mean, most people never experience a moment like that ever in their life. Right. Much less twice. Yeah. Was it any easier the second time? Was it harder the second time getting this news? I I mean, I can only imagine what was that like.

Prenatal Eugenics And Human Dignity

Wayne Topp 12:49

Yeah. You know, the first time I think it's interesting that this is our first child and what we believe is probably our last child. And and so you need to have the book ends. I mean, you're you're a brand new first-time parent, and you get the news, and you know, and gosh, both situations. You're talking about the end of the life that's already growing inside your wife. And I would say that that both have their own level of difficulty. But again, with our first child, we knew we're gonna get through this together, whatever it is. And we're young and we have energy, and there's no other responsibilities at the time at our house besides our work. But with it being our eighth child, immediately you start thinking about the effect that it's going to have on the family, the effect that, you know, we had already walked through all of the physical therapy, the occupational therapy, speech therapy, walkers, leg braces, medicines, oxygen. We had the full gamut. I mean, there are there are families that have definitely had to deal with more difficult situations, but you know, we remembered and still experienced the time that it takes to care for someone with special needs. And having that presented was part of what was made this so, so difficult, that the news so difficult for us. But again, thankfully, even when we were deciding to be open again to life, that was all part of the conversation. And each time it's always been part of the conversation. Like, are we open to any possibility of what this could look like? Are we ready and willing to accept the walk that we've had to walk with our first child again? And so, you know, we had kind of already talked through that. So that also made it easier.

Victor Nieves 14:35

You know, Wayne, another one of the things that stands out as I just reflect on your story is to hear that the doctors, I think this is a first. The doctor specifically said, listen, I have to say this. It might not even be that I want to suggest the idea of an abortion. So in a way, my my heart and prayers go out to the doctors in those situations who have to deal with that on their conscience now, that they're being forced into a position which is just horrible. I mean, it it goes against everything, really, in the in the Hippocratic Oath. But one of the things that I want to point out to our listener is as we have these conversations about prenatal diagnoses, and it is an offshoot of eugenics. It just is, definitionally. The idea that somebody would be different, somebody would have unique challenges, struggles, as if we don't all have unique challenges and struggles, maybe to a greater degree, obviously, but that's not a justification to preemptively kill somebody. We we've heard this before. When there is that very negative prognosis, they'll want to kill the child so the child doesn't die, right? That's the logic here is well, we think that your child may unfortunately pass away, so we're going to preempt that process and we're going to kill them in advance. And especially whenever you add on to the idea that this is often to people who might have some sort of a disability, they might have a unique situation. I would encourage people who are in the medical community, the ethics boards on these hospitals, to go look into the definition of eugenics because this is literally an offshoot of eugenics. No matter who you are, where you are, how big, small, tall, smart, whatever it might be. As human beings, we don't have a right to life because of what we can do. We don't have a right to life because of our unique circumstances. We have a right to life because of what we are. We're made in the image of God. We're human beings with an inherent right to life. That doesn't change based on our circumstance. It doesn't change based on what unique prognosis or or diagnosis that that you may have. And so, Wayne, I mean, it that breaks my heart to think of the medical staff who's put in this position where they have to make such a recommendation. What do you have as a message to those who are in the medical field who are also, you know, this is a unique angle here, who are having to navigate that side of things as well.

Wayne Topp 16:48

Yeah, I um I agree with you, Victor. I, you know, my heart breaks for anybody who is being forced in any way to offer that as an option. Again, I I could tell in that moment that the doctor was somewhat pained to even present the option. And yet, like, you know where that's coming from. You know that if I don't say something and, you know, I could get sued, I could lose my license. I, you know, like the amount of pressure on these physicians is outrageous. And all I can really offer to these medical professionals is I think our doctor handled it well in the sense that, you know, they said, I don't want to offer this. I I think the other to go a step farther would be, I hate offering this. I don't want to offer this. I believe that your child has dignity and that your child deserves a chance at life. I think it would be amazing for a doctor to witness to that in that moment and yet say, But because of what I have to do, I must bring this to your attention. And it doesn't have to go any farther. I'm certain that a doctor is already being told, like, look, you can't try to advise against it, blah, blah, blah. Um, but to witness, to, to be able to witness in that moment, I believe your child deserves a chance at life. Because here's here's the other thing. And Victor, you were starting to point to go down this road. I why do we say that every child, every person has a right to life? Why do we say that that each life has dignity? The reason we say that, I've come to know more and more personally, it is because God is actually, through the creative act that we that he allows us to participate in, he is actually putting his flesh, his love into flesh in the world through each and every one of us. And so, like in a very, very real sense, God is renewing his love for the world through life. And so when he puts his love in flesh in the world in a new way with every single human being that is created, that means he is trying to love this world in a way the world has never experienced it before. And it never will again, because he's constantly renewing his love. And so, like every moment of life, from that moment of conception through the natural death, he is loving the world in a way he has never done before. And that automatically must bring with it dignity. And so when we talk about, well, let's just look, I know that this child may die in the womb. So we're gonna end that life now. That you have now, like the number of miracles that that woman can experience, even if the child does die in the womb, and and how chick a loss that is. I mean, I know so many people who have dealt with miscarriage. I praise God that we have never had that experience. But I know that that life changes that woman. I know that that life means something. And I know also that that witness of carrying that life as long as that woman can provides a witness to people that woman and that family may never know the impact of that witness. And those days that were cut short, that child missed out on life, even in the womb, right? Those who knows how many people that woman could have met. Like, yes, I'm carrying this life within me. So to me, that's the biggest tragedy of abortion is that we as the world miss out on the miracle of God's love in flesh and the world in a very, very real way that we've never gotten to experience before. And so, you know, just yeah. I I say that to the doctors who have to suggest it, but as an opportunity to witness like your child is bringing life, is bringing love in a world that needs it right now for as long as he can.

What To Do After Hard News

Victor Nieves 20:50

Wayne, what advice do you have for parents in that moment who have just received news they never anticipated and they don't know what to do? Yeah.

Wayne Topp 20:59

My biggest advice is to take a breath and immediately call on the Holy Spirit to be with you in that moment. My wife and I had each other, and I know that that's not always the case, especially at 20 week ultrasounds, that you know, ultimate a number of times one, you know, like a husband may have to be at work. And this is supposed to just be a, you know, happy, we're gonna find out the gender of our child, and I'm gonna keep it a secret, and I'm gonna tell my husband later. And, you know, there's supposed to it's supposed to be a moment of great joy and excitement, and we get to see our child for the first time in the hands and the arms, and but in that moment of crushing news, my advice is to turn to prayer and to realize that God is with you, uh, that God's love is truly present even within you. And in that moment, at that time, this is not the end right now. And you don't actually don't need to make a choice right now. You have time and the best use of That time is to bring it to God and allow Him to provide you the grace you need to make the best choice for your family.

Victor Nieves 22:09

Well, Wayne, thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you for sharing the story of your family, for being an encouragement to myself and I know to our listeners as well.

Wayne Topp 22:17

Yeah. Thank you. It's a true pleasure.

Victor Nieves 22:30

Well, once again, I am so tremendously appreciative and thankful for Wayne and him sharing the story of his children, his family, his testimony through it all. He's an encouragement to me. And, you know, I keep going back to one, the horror of having to experience that not just once, but twice, to have medical professionals come in and recommend abortion for your child that you're so excited about. But to hear his encouragement, his recommendation, both to the medical community, also to the parents out there is truly it's invaluable. And one of the things that, you know, again, always stands out to me as we have these conversations is that this is a form of eugenics. To take the life of a child because of their diagnosis, because of their condition, maybe their special needs, that is a form of eugenics. We know that as human beings, we don't get our worth because of our arms, legs, ears, toes, whatever it might be. We have our worth, we have our value and our right to life because we are made in the image of God, because we are human beings. And regardless of your circumstance, you always have that right to life. I want to encourage you, our listener, to go to our website, lifeissues.org, where you can find more information, resources that you can share with your friends, your family member, your church community, and hopefully you'll share this program with them as well to be an encouragement. You never know who might need this information. Again, it's all available at lifeissues.org. Be sure to tune in next week for another straight talk on life issues.